Diving Deeper into Global Systems Integrator Ecosystems: Geographic, Industry and Credentialing Data by Technology Partner

Principal Analyst Boz Hristov and Analyst Alex Demeule join “TBR Talks” for an exclusive look at TBR’s Ecosystem Reports, which detail how the top global systems integrators’ (GSIs) most important technology partners — Amazon Web Services, Azure, Google Cloud Platform, SAP, Oracle, Workday, ServiceNow, Salesforce, Adobe — collaborate with integrators and consultancies. How many certified, trained staff do these practices bring to their partnerships within the most influential GSIs? How do they address migration and modernization efforts? How are they deploying AI solutions? TBR has been answering these critical questions for years, and Boz and Alex are excited to announce that upcoming publications will include the addition of geographic data cuts for Americas, EMEA and APAC. (Industry vertical cuts on the horizon as well!) Additionally, the trio will discuss the possibility of more analysis on partner perception of working with one another as well as the addition of more research on ISVs such as HubSpot

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Diving Deeper into Global Systems Integrator Ecosystems: Geographic, Industry and Credentialing Data by Technology Partner

TBR Talks Host Patrick Heffernan: ome to TBR Talks: Decoding Strategies and Ecosystems of the Globe’s Top Tech Firms, where we talk business model disruption in the broad technology ecosystem from management consultancies to systems integrators, hyperscalers to independent software vendors, telecom operators to network and infrastructure vendors and chip manufacturers to value added resellers. We’ll be answering some of the key intelligence questions we’ve heard from executives and business unit leaders among the leading professional IT services and telecom vendors. 

I’m Patrick Heffernan, Principal Analyst, and today we’ll be talking about TBR’s family of ecosystem research with Boz Hristov, Principal Analyst for TBR’s Digital Transformation practice and Alex Demeule, Analyst for TBR’s Cloud and Software practice. 

Boz and Alex, great to have you guys back on the podcast.

Alex Demeule, TBR Analyst: Good to be here.

Bozhidar Hristov, TBR Principal Analyst: Hey, good to be here. Thanks for having us.

New ecosystem analysis

Patrick: Excellent. Yeah. So, I want to talk about our ecosystem research, our ecosystem intelligence reports, which we’re in year three now of doing these. And it’s been a blend, a combination, a merging of work that we do in the cloud and software space and work that we do in the IT services and consulting space. Basically we look at each of the companies that we cover in detail in those spaces, but now for the last few years, we’ve been combining those two research streams and saying what are the relationships between these companies like and what can we learn about the ecosystem that they’re working in by understanding those relationships. And this has proved to be enormously valuable to our clients because all of them depend on their ecosystems in order to grow, and I want to wrap up when we get to the end to talk about how we see that kind of changing. But if you could maybe just walk us through right now what are we looking at that’s new in the ecosystem research? And I mean just to say at the beginning, we do have ecosystem research around the hyperscalers, we have it around some ISVs, and so maybe you can tell us where we are now and where we’re kind of, what’s new, maybe what’s coming next.

Boz: Sure, happy to. So, as you mentioned, you know the research spans across the consultancies and the global systems integrators, intersections with the hyperscalers as well as the ISV community. So, the streams of reports that we’ve been producing in the last three years have been focused on the infrastructure side, as I said, you know, and the application side. So, the application side of the house is what we are expanding in terms of coverage. So we’re about to launch our ServiceNow Ecosystem report, which looks at the intersection of ServiceNow’s relationship with 10 of the largest GSIs and consultancies, which is a very similar report to what we have for the likes of the SAP Oracle and Workday, Adobe and Salesforce on the application site, as well as the hyperscalers, the AWS, Google Cloud, and Microsoft Azure. So, that report is a brand new one coming up shortly and it’s really just the combination of a lot of conversations we have had with both sides of the house, both technology and services providers. And looking through the lens of the role of ServiceNow as it augments its own value proposition and enhances its partner strategy along the way, portfolio, technology portfolio, commercial models, sales promotions and so forth. You know, knowledge is happening in the short manner as we are recording this podcast. So, I’m sure we’re going to hear more updates on ServiceNow as well as its partners from Partner Day. So that’s coming up. 

So that’s the big new report that’s coming up. But we also are in the field right now with the next iteration of our Voice of the Partner report. So, the Voice of the Partner, as it suggests, looks at the intersection and the relationship between three groups of vendors, the OEM providers, the cloud and software providers, as well as the services providers, and really trying to answer the big question, what are partners missing of each other. And again we are going for the second iteration of that report, that should be publishing in the next three to four weeks as well, like late May, early June.

Patrick: Okay.

Boz: Essentially, last but not least we are adding additional data cuts, as I mentioned you know we have the Cloud Ecosystem report that looks at the hyperscaler’s relationship with the GSIs and consultancies. So that was the first set of reports that we launched 3 years ago and now we have reached kind of a point where we have gathered enough data, where we are going to model additional data essentially on our own and expend that proprietary methodology looking through the geo specific cuts. So, we’re breaking down the- let’s take for example Accenture’s AWS revenue and headcount by geography, right, we’ll do the same thing for the other three practice areas as well as across all the 11 providers there in the report. So, we’re starting to add additional data cuts in that report. So ServiceNow, additional data cuts, and Voice of the Partner, if I had to sum it up.

New analysis being added

Patrick: Excellent. And Alex, so now we have ServiceNow, SAP Oracle Workday, right, and then Adobe and Salesforce. So, we’ve got six. In your view, coming from the cloud and software side of the house are those the most important and who might be coming next?

Alex: Well, the big one that’s coming next for the cloud practice and you’re talking about Voice of the Partner is the Cloud Voice of the Partner. That report that Boz started, you know, we looked at that from the cloud practice and just such great insights coming from, you know, what’s differentiating these vendors within the ecosystem and how is the ecosystem looking at its peers and being opinionated about how they collaborate and with whom they’re collaborating with. So, we really want to double tap on the cloud angle around this Voice of the Partner report, so, coming out with a dedicated cloud report in the coming months, I believe that’s going to be a 2Q25 report for us, sort of towards the middle of the year. So that’s something that people can expect to see, a big new report coming out of the cloud practice.

Patrick: Do you anticipate within a year or so that we’ll be, or less, that we’ll be adding another ISV to that that mix along with Adobe and Salesforce and Workday and all the rest? Is there anybody else, I guess I’m asking that you’re like, I wish we had the ecosystem report for these guys.

Alex: There’s a lot of great companies that probably should be included in these reports. I think picking one is sometimes sort of the challenge that comes to my mind. You know, HubSpot is a fast grower. 

Patrick: Right.

Alex: When I look at the Cloud Applications Benchmark and their relationship to Salesforce, you know looking at how they compete, you know their name, that could be included within the Adobe and Salesforce Ecosystem report just because I think that they’re growing really well right now. And I think that their role in the market is going to continue to, you know, be very competitive.

Patrick: Right. And I could see coming at it Boz, from the services point, you might say, here are the companies that have chosen or are working with HubSpot in a very strategic way. So maybe highlighting them just from the services perspective.

Could the management consultancy’s labor pyramids collapse?

Alex, you said differentiation and that always sort of is a trigger for me, when you think about how these ecosystem reports are used, is that one of the most important use cases is like it allows you to see not just the staffing or the, you know, the dedicated resources and the acquisitions or the, you know, the investments that are being made, but how you can actually tell the difference between Accenture’s Azure practice and Deloitte’s Azure practice? Is that what sort of comes out in these reports?

Alex: Yeah, I would say so. And you know one of the things I mean, I’m always thinking about it from sort of the cloud angle, being in the cloud practice. 

Patrick: Right.

Alex: So, you know when we talk to these services vendors, like the word I just used opinionated, and so that opinionation is going to be based in what they see as differentiation by the vendors and sort of how they are executing on their product strategy and sort of what the road map looks like and sort of how that is positioned in the broader cloud opportunity, whether it’s you know, core enterprise migrations, or something more emerging like AI. So, you know, getting to the root of, you know, how these cloud vendors are being viewed by the services professionals and how that is influencing where the services professionals are investing their money, that’s really what I like to think about a lot.

Patrick: Okay. And then Boz from your perspective, the same kind of question.

Boz: Yeah, differentiation is like you said, it’s a trigger word for sure. And I think from a services side, one question we’ve been trying to get a better understanding of is how well services providers and their cloud and software counterparts think about each other meaning- and how well they know each other, I should say is probably is better way to phrase it, is, you know, that knowledge management and ensuring that SAP can tell, you know, the EY story as good as EY can tell their own story. So, I think that’s the kind of, the big question that I think no one has cracked the code on that particular challenge yet from just- from what we’re gathering sentiments and the Voice of the Partner, you know, surveys and just ongoing conversations. There are some bits and pieces and efforts in certain practice areas that we see some vendors being a little bit closer aligned and think ServiceNow actually, now that we’re doing the research around it, we see them, some of the partners being better positioned themselves within each other and between each other meaning, you know, there’s like three to four industry offerings for example for specific industries, right, versus, we can be ServiceNow’s partner across 19 industries, right? So that kind of starts to suggest you know the calibration of expectations and better alignment between the two parties, so that then when the sales process, when the go to market motions get fine-tuned, there’s a little bit more better alignment to that, which can actually essentially service the customer you know through the- to the best way possible. But I think that’s the differentiation for me is about how well partners can tell each others’ story.

Patrick: We just had a conversation recently with a client that was talking about how they’re trying to shift their own brand in the marketplace and how, you know, they’re trying to get more into, honestly into the consulting side of things. They’re trying to do, you know, higher value kind of work, which is great. And one of the things that we advised was listen, having your partners tell that story is going to be more powerful than you trying to go out and tell your story. Because nobody sort of, not nobody, but it’s harder to market, you know, believe that we’re different as opposed to having somebody like a, you know, a hyperscaler come in and say, hey, these guys are different. 

GenAI and pricing models

So, I want to pivot a little bit to, you know, what is it you don’t know? Like you guys are obviously experts, you know everything, but there’s gotta be stuff, there’s still questions you don’t know the answers to. So, when you think about the ecosystem and ecosystem intelligence, and I know from a competitive intelligence perspective, we’re really good at saying these are the key intelligence questions we’re going after. What are the key intelligence questions within the ecosystem intelligence space, that despite 3 years of looking at ecosystem intelligence reports, you’re still going after, you’re still trying to solve? Boz, you want to go first?

Boz: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think that the biggest opportunity for everyone that I think we’re trying to also untangle is around the commercial construct, an opportunity that we are starting to see being amplified and accelerated with discussions around GenAI. What I mean by that is so the GenAI focus and the push around, you know, we can sell you, you know, you can use the technology to increase productivity, to improve your kind of like operations etcetera, etcetera. So that is putting a different pressure on the services vendors. Meaning that now they’re on the hook for delivering essentially those outcomes. So- and historically, services companies, that’s what they know for, consultancies, they pride themselves on being able to talk about the business language, the business outcomes and trying to be a little bit more, you know, kind of a line of business and industry wrapper around the technology discussion. Now the challenge that we see and we’re trying to understand is how prepared are the software and the cloud providers to change their pricing models to become more of an outcome-based focus. We don’t know of any, we’re not aware at least, I don’t think- I spoke with many people around in the ecosystem, any single ISV provider or cloud provider that currently is prepared to charge on outcome-based for this piece of software, right.

Patrick: Yeah.

Boz: Now, one can argue that, you know, this is the job of the consultancies, right? But that puts pressure on the consultancies to ensure that the relationship is aligned and you know, we know about the consumption model. So, you can say, oh, there’s a consumption, they consume XY and get paid that way and the outcome is driven by the consumption, etcetera, etcetera. You can kind of massage the message that way. But I think the challenge is that, you know, the expectation is evolving, and I think that maybe it’s something that it’s three years, five years down the road, whatever time it takes for GenAI to start to really pick up steam in terms of making a difference on the financial side. I mean, now it’s got plenty of steam on the hype side from a GenAI perspective, but in terms of like the monetization of the technology, are there software providers out there, either current, that currently in the market space or up and coming, they’re really going to catch the Salesforce and the Workday of the world in the blind spot where they actually will be prepared to actually come out in the public and say we are going to- we’re changing the business model. 

Patrick: Yeah.

Boz: We’re changing the way we’re going to charge and that’s going to make everyone’s job different. Now that’s going to create opportunities for new partnerships because McKinsey can look around and say we always talk about outcomes. You’re selling on outcomes, your piece of software. Now we can make a joint- 

Patrick: So, we’re aligned. 

Boz: We’re aligned. So, I’m trying to draw some comparisons to 20+ years ago when, you know, Salesforce and Workday came around and disrupted traditional ISV models. The big change was, yeah, sure, the technology architecture was different from modular to agile. Yada, yada. But actually the big change was about how those companies are monetizing the IP, right. And the cloud was about business model change. So, is the next wave of business model change for ISV’s going to become more an outcome-based, and that’s something we’re trying to understand. It is, I will understand that especially if you become publicly traded company messaging to Wall Street and whatnot that’s a completely different, that changes the narrative.

Patrick: Right.

Boz: But as you know the, you know, this has to change, the professional services companies are gradually evolving and they’re trying to change you know how they’re thinking about their commercial models as well and trying to think how much GenAI is disrupting their business model and from a being times and material to more fixed price or outcome-based?

Patrick: Right.

Boz: So, this is kind of the big questions we’re trying to, you know, go after and see how the ecosystem will evolve as the outcome-based pricing model changes across the board.

Patrick: Right, Alex. He just laid down a lot of landmines for you to kind of walk around, or maybe step on. Because I think the challenge that Boz just presented was to the companies that you cover, can they actually change their business models and their commercial models, or does it need to go the other way, that the IT services companies need to learn how to be more, I don’t want to say commoditized but learn how to sell at a subscription or retainer kind of model.

Boz: Yeah, that’s the flip side, yeah.

Patrick: So, what do you think Alex?

Alex: I mean, as far as commercialization goes, you know the consumption method has definitely proven to be the, you know, the go-to as far as AI is concerned. There is one software vendor that is doing outcome-based pricing that I’ve come across. I think it was Zendesk.

Patrick: Okay.

Alex: I think Zendesk is doing outcome-based pricing. I really should be double checking that.

Boz: We they sell it directly or sell it with partners?

Alex: I have to double check on that and get back to you,

Boz: Okay, just curious.

Alex: But it’s rare. It’s definitely-

Patrick: Yeah.

Alex: It’s definitely not something that we’re seeing broadly, broadly adopted. And like one of the other things that that caught my ear while Boz was talking was just this idea of these- where are these AI first vendors going to look at, we know that they are, they’re probably being built right now. You know, they probably exist out there. They probably haven’t risen in terms of like the spotlight that all the major incumbents still have. But at the end of the day, Salesforce, which was this massive disruptor back in its time, is now the incumbent, 

Patrick: Right.

Alex: And now it’s going to be the target of disruption and you know, getting to- like bringing back to this idea of like the opinionated service provider. Getting their opinion on, you know, a Salesforce is much simpler than understanding what they’re looking at as far as these up and coming AI first companies. 

Patrick: Right.

Alex: And so it’s going to be a constant challenge for us to be intellectually agile to, you know, hear and figure out sort of what they’re looking at and being able to keep up with them. Because it’s not something that’s necessarily being projected outward, they’re much more vocal around those major, those really large incumbent and those partnerships.

Patrick: Right.

Alex: But understanding who they are placing early bets in and these like AI native companies, that’s something that’s going to be challenging and an outstanding question.

What comes next: Companies, questions and data cuts

Patrick: So, when you think- so, Alex, put yourself in the same seat in a year from now. What are some of the questions you think you’re going to be answering then or is it different from what you just said or, and maybe even what are some of the companies since you mentioned these sort of the up and comers, what are some of the companies that you imagine a year from now we’ve got in the ecosystem intelligence reports mix? I keep asking you for specific companies. 

Alex: I know. *laughs*

Patrick: And it’s not fair, but you know, putting you on the spot.

Alex: I know it. You know this isn’t a good example, but one that I do think is a name that everyone’s familiar with, OpenAI. 

Patrick: Yeah.

Alex: You know, Satya Nadella had a podcast that was pretty widely dispersed where he said OpenAI is not a model company anymore. They are a product company.

Patrick: Right. 

Alex: ChatGPT is the product, you know. ChatGPT is a product, it’s a great product and all a lot of these model companies have done a really good job of productizing their investments already. You know, Anthropic has done a good job with it. Perplexity, there’s a lot of these tools that are, you know, sort of, were born sort of in the consumer because, you know, it was sort of these online platforms that anyone could go access — but look at PwC: Like PwC was one of the first companies to go out and make it an enterprise-wide tool and be a reseller and a service provider delivering ChatGPT to the enterprise. 

Patrick: Right

Alex: So, you know even these well-known AI model providers, you know, those are names that now that they’re turning these product companies, could become more relevant to us as that goes.

Patrick: Yeah, and then Boz, from your perspective, I know a year from now you could say, okay, we’ve got ServiceNow we’re looking at 10 IT services companies and consultancies. So, a year from now you can say we can look at ServiceNow and 20. That’s the easy answer, give me the hard answer which is, you know, what are the other kinds of things you think are going to be different a year from now.

Boz: Yeah, the expansion of the partnerships absolutely. And I think what I just started, I think it’s kind of like got my, you know, attention as well as I’m thinking about that coverage expansion is, you know, drawing parallels to the way cloud first came around, right? And everyone was building cloud trained personnel.

Patrick: Right.

Boz: You know they had a big announcement. Now we’re seeing everyone is training GenAI, AI training, data and AI practices are expanding, certain goals, yada, yada. So, naturally the next evolution will be how many people you have vertically around OpenAI, around Anthropic’s Claude, around Gemini. You know all these pieces now, when you develop a community are you are you focused on, you know, having model trained personnel, that is part of, you know, the joint go to market efforts, or it’s for more your own proprietary kind or partner enabled, you know, accelerators. So that’s kind of the thing that’s just a natural evolution of the discussion because AI essentially becomes the new cloud discussion from a business layer perspective and how companies organize. So that makes perfect sense, what he’s discussing that it’s going to be about a year from now or two years from now in terms of like, started building out the same way we’ve been building out the cloud practices and the ISV practices for those SIs. But I can see that being naturally kind of the next wave of, you know, the ecosystem intelligence reports moving forward and understanding. 

Patrick: Right.

Boz: I think that’s where really the big commercial model, pricing model will come into play of how those companies will be the key focal point discussion. In terms of the current coverage and thinking about what next, I think naturally the questions we usually get from clients are around the industry vertical intersection. So, I mentioned we’re starting with the geographic expansion of the Cloud Ecosystem report. Naturally, we’re going to build into similar kind of data cuts within the existing other reports within that on the application side. 

Patrick: Right.

Boz: So that geo breakouts are the natural one. And then the next one will be to start adding the industry vertical. You know understanding, okay, can we give us, you know, the top six, top eight industry verticals by practice area by partner, you know. So, essentially again thinking, let’s say Capgemini this time with Microsoft, what are Capgemini and Microsoft’s top six or top eight verticals? 

Patrick: Right.

Boz: And obviously the bundle of all will be like the- another intersection of industry by geo, but that’s something that we could do, it just take so much more of the research and the- but it’s certainly it’s on the road map, the internal road maps, but it’s certainly something that you know just will take a little more time.

Multi-party alliances

Patrick: So, let me paint a picture that’s going to be either wildly optimistic or just insane. Or both. So right now, if you took all 200 companies that TBR covers and justice put them in a big matrix, we can fill in a lot of those squares, like the relationship between, you know, Microsoft and Deloitte, the relationship between KPMG and SAP. You know, we can fill those boxes in with data, with analysis. 

Boz: Yeah. 

Patrick: What we have now, we’re now expanding to say, you know, let’s look at that by geo. Let’s look at that by service line. Okay, that’s a two by two where you’re filling in all those boxes. Now let’s take the next step and say what about multi-party alliances? Let’s put together the SAP, EY and Infosys relationship. 

Boz: Yeah.

Patrick: How does that look? Can you imagine- how soon are we going to be able to say here’s the three-dimensional, four-dimensional view of the ecosystem?

Boz: I think it’s certainly in the near future, right? But I think what starting point before that prerequisite as you said it, made me think about another set of conversations we’ve been having about the expansion of the portfolios around workloads. 

Patrick: Ah.

Boz: So, I think this is kind of where we started thinking about the multi-party alliances and understanding, take for example Microsoft Stack, right, Microsoft Azure, and understanding what’s the composition of workloads? SAP, Oracle, Salesforce, whatever ISV you can just put and then start there thinking about from that and then cut across, or put across I should say, vertically against the stack the other GSI, right? 

Patrick: Okay.

Boz: So then start thinking from through that angle. So that’s the, you know, understanding the workload distribution across hyperscalers, I think because the hyperscalers are essentially the backbone-

Patrick: They’re the backbone of

Boz: Of all this work all right.

Patrick: Sure, yeah.

Boz: So, you need to start from there and then really understand how it stacks up and then understand who are, which are the channel partners that drive the most of that workload from the GSI and the consulting perspective.

Patrick: Yeah, okay. That makes a lot of sense. So, we’d be looking at, we’d be looking at the multi-party alliances not by which of the companies are forming together to solve a particular problem, but saying this particular problem exists as addressed by this workload. So, within that within, I keep trying to draw, as though people can see this. I’m like using my hands like-

Boz: Yeah, we’re, drawing, yes.

Patrick: But, in that stack of this particular workload. 

Boz: Yeah.

Patrick: Different percentages of that work is being driven by different companies and how those pieces all fit together, 

Boz: Yeah.

Patrick: determine like what that multi-party ecosystem alliance is.

Boz: And the biggest question will be is that, are those workloads being driven by the hyperscaler directly, direct sales of the hyperscaler, or the GSI?

Patrick: Or somebody else.

Boz: Right, that’s the- or the direct sale of the ISV provider. So how- who actually is the leading, who’s the orchestrator, who’s the management you know and that stuff.

Patrick: And then there’s the companies coming in underneath and saying you’re doing this inefficiently. Here’s where we can, you know, provide fin-ops and make it work better for you. So, there’s that too.

Boz: Yeah, that too, plus there’s one group, one more group of vendors that we have not touched upon that’s in the Voice of the Partner, is the OEM providers. The infrastructure providers, they’re as critical as the hyperscalers and everybody else in the ecosystem, right.

Patrick: Right. 

Boz: So, we need to account for their implications and know sometimes you know, oh yeah, if it’s an infrastructure provider, you know, it’s a kind of a given, right? 

Patrick: Right.

Boz: No, they also do look through that workload, especially when you take the AI discussion we just had a moment ago and thinking about the workloads on-prem versus in the cloud, right? How do they then think about their partners and who actually thinks about it through that lens as well, because that adds another dimension in the ecosystem reports.

Where will workloads live

Patrick: Alex, it sounds like it’s a lot more work for you, is what it sounds like, because you’re coming at it from the workloads 

Alex: Yeah.

Patrick: That’s your, that’s your space. 

Alex: Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, where the workloads are going? Yeah, that’s something that we spend a lot of time with, especially in our customer research and trying to understand, you know, we had this big wave of cloud repatriation, which I look at, you know. How you can take costs out of your IT procurement and whether that is something that is going to be a long term headwind to cloud growth. I- we tend to be of the mind that, you know, the cloud is still the final destination for a lot of these workloads. But when you bring in AI and you start talking about latency requirements and security requirements, it definitely shakes up- it shakes up the puzzle, and there’s definitely gives and takes, and it’s going to be probably determined around, you know, the specific use cases that the customer is focusing on, you know. When we talk about like a manufacturing or a health care where there’s more OT angles, you know, and latency becomes mission critical, then yeah, we think more about on-premise AI deployment. But I still think that with how much data and the innovation that people get access to when they deploy in the cloud, there’s still going to be a large chunk of the pie that ends up that ends up there.

Patrick: Yeah. Yeah, I think you’re right. And that repatriation story was kind of a spike early on with GenAI when there was the when the-

Alex: Yeah.

Patrick: The excitement over what it could do was met by the bill that came with it, and then it’s like well, so we can- what can we repatriate. 

Final thoughts

Awesome discussion. This was really good. We covered a ton of ground. I’m really glad we’ve got these reports coming out in the near term and what I think we should do is in the next- in season 4 of the podcast, we’ll sit down again, because by then you’ll have the Voice of the Partner reports out. We’ll have the latest ecosystem reports out and we will have had feedback from our clients on what really resonated and what kind of questions they had after that. So, let’s plan on chatting again. Boz, Alex. Thank you very much.

Boz: Thank you. 

Alex: Thank you.

Patrick: Next week I’ll be speaking with Boz Hristov and Kelly Lesiczka about Big Four firm EY’s people advisory services. Don’t forget to send us your key intelligence questions on business strategy, ecosystems and management consulting through the form in the show notes below. Visit tbri.com to learn how we help tech companies large and small answer these questions with the research data and analysis my guests bring to this conversation every week. 

Once again, I’m your host, Patrick Heffernan, Principal Analyst at TBR, thanks for joining us and see you next week.

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